In my eyes.. a win is for the clan.. no matter if someone has won every frame, and someone only won 1 frames.. the person who won that one frame.. still contributed to the title win.. its not a one man domination slip.. you join a clan for a team effort.. and you all reward each other with the win

Just to back up my last point a bit more clearly, can someone please define the clan dollars and cents without making reference to any players and in a way that distinguishes it from every other clan.
If you cannot do this, then the clan does not exist as anything more than the players.

maybe we should rename the league players league instead of clan league?

It is still a clan league because players play in teams, my argument is though that a clan is nothing more than the players.

clearly its not as its all about the players and not the clan in your own words

When you think of a clan lets use MVP for example the first thing i think off is the best clan on pool, not ohh they have top players like dvz and beenjammin etc.

Then if thats the case then why are we having this debate at all??

arpeggi "owned" the clan- he could've closed it if he wanted to. if dgen and I decide to do so, we can close D&C today. It's a bit like a franchise.
I didn't know that Man Utd. exists as a football club without its players? Can they win without its players? Can D&C win without a captain and a vice to organize it all? Can the players win the league without a clan?
Sure, but take a couple of players out and they don't win the league, just like on here.

I just don't see how it is an individual achievement. If the players aren't in this structure called a clan, they can't win the league. Thus, the collective of players make the clan win. The collective of Man Utd players make the club win. The trainers etc probably helped them along. It could be argued that FSE killer improved your safety play?

the players and the clan are one and the same thing. all FSE was last season was (damee,sean_paul,adam_147,jay_afc,mich,i_am_blessed,...,mrmagic) (typing all the names would take too long).

If the players and the clan are not the same thing, you will be able to define a particular clan without reference to any of the players in it.

Dollars & Cents is an online snooker team founded by arpeggi a few seasons ago, which has since achieved x achievements.

I'm not sure what's being asked here and for what purpose to be honest. This seems very theoretical. Players identify with the clan they're in, they feel pressure in important games because the clan could lose or win, they celebrate a league victory with the clan.

I never said it was an individual achievement, the achievement belongs to all the players who played in that clan.

There is a difference between the union of 15 one-element sets and a single set with 15 elements.

The D&C one said "Arpeggi" - fail
The FSE one said "Damee" - fail. (nice edit tinie)

Trust me, you can't do it.

Edited at 00:57 Tue 07/02/12 (GMT)

*cough* damee's slaves *cough*

It's probably because FSE are empty and plastic- just a collection of players as adam says, while D&C are an institution

Dollars & Cents is an online snooker team founded a few seasons ago, which has since achieved x achievements.

"arpeggi" was just an added detail. Can be done without... is this better?

FSE is an online snooker team founded B seasons ago, which has since achieved X achievements.

FSE2 is an online snooker team founded B seasons ago, which has since achieved X achievements.

What distinguishes FSE from my mysterious FSE2, founded at the same time and which has won exactly the same things? Only one thing... the players.

Manchester United is a Premiership football team based in Old Trafford/Salford in Manchester, who play their home games at Old Trafford Stadium (insert the rest of the address), are managed by Sir Alex Ferguson (insert DOB and personal details). I could go into more detail but I think that is sufficient to prove the point that Manchester United can be defined uniquely without reference to the players, whereas a snooker clan can't be.

Edited at 01:06 Tue 07/02/12 (GMT)

LOL adam....what???

I think its bedtime

think you will like my post on FSE thread adam, instead of saying well done FSE on the league i copied the teamlist as it seems like its an individual achievement these days rather than a team effort.

lets just call the clan league the players championship or something.

why not do your own league, players championship, 100 players, round robin, how would it last? it can't

If I actually went to the trouble of listing the achievements and finding the exact founding date, it would be perfectly distinguishable.

The clan D&C has existed for lots of seasons, with varying players. So that means the central unit is always there (D&C), but the individual parts are exchanged (players transferring/ retiring), right?

I'm saying that the only thing that defines a particular clan is its players. Thus any victory belongs to that set of 15 (or however many) players, not to each individual, nor to some word that someone has chosen to represent that set of 15 players.